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Post by Absolute Zero on Mar 12, 2007 6:11:02 GMT -5
A rather contoversial, and at the same time universally revered figure in the church.
The divisive characteristics are:
1) The intact virginity: some Christians believe that Mary remained a virgin throughout her life. Whereas some point out that the Bible mentions Jesus' brother, which contradicts the intact virginity stance.
2) Some Christians hold Mary as a figure almost equal to Jesus, sending her prayers and giving offerings. Others consider such practice paganistic.
Is there a correct point of view or is the difference a result of a misunderstanding between christian churches?
Discuss.
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Post by fistful of corn on Mar 12, 2007 6:16:08 GMT -5
Yes indeed, there is a correct point of view, that being the Biblical one. Intact virginity: nothing is mentioned of this, beyond the circumstances surrounding the birth of Jesus Christ. Beyond that, it can be assumed that Joseph knew her and she conceived in the normal fashion. Mary: certainly a special person, as she was chosen by Almighty God to give birth to Jesus Christ. However, beyond that, she is not a diety. Nothing in the scripture diefies her or mentions giving up offereings or prayer to her. More paganistic Catholic human-tradition add-ons. Apostasy and apocryphilic madness!
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Post by Absolute Zero on Mar 12, 2007 6:31:52 GMT -5
Does being the "Mother of God" put her on a plane above most mortals? What I mean, was she chosen because, like Jesus, she was a little more than human and if not free of sin, near free?
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Post by fistful of corn on Mar 12, 2007 6:48:27 GMT -5
That is an interesting question, and one that the scriptures don't get into so much. I have no doubt that she has/had a special relationship with the Lord; however, that doesn't mean that we should think ourselves to have a special relationship with her. Afterall, Jesus Christ himself said that "John the Baptist was the greatest man ever born of a woman." He never mentioned a 'greatest woman', I would imagine that he meant 'humankind'. Also, as for her selection, consider all of the sinners that the Lord put into special positions, like Paul. Here was a man that was actively persecuting Christians, until his conversion on the road to Damascus. Recall that the apostle John (not John the Baptist) was called "the disciple loved by Christ", which shows a special relationship, and he instructed His Mother and John , from the cross, to live out the rest of their lives as family, John to look after her as his own Mother, and her to rely upon John as a son. ;D
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Post by deathweaver on Mar 13, 2007 3:02:09 GMT -5
That is an interesting question, and one that the scriptures don't get into so much. I have no doubt that she has/had a special relationship with the Lord; however, that doesn't mean that we should think ourselves to have a special relationship with her. Afterall, Jesus Christ himself said that "John the Baptist was the greatest man ever born of a woman." He never mentioned a 'greatest woman', I would imagine that he meant 'humankind'. Also, as for her selection, consider all of the sinners that the Lord put into special positions, like Paul. Here was a man that was actively persecuting Christians, until his conversion on the road to Damascus. Recall that the apostle John (not John the Baptist) was called "the disciple loved by Christ", which shows a special relationship, and he instructed His Mother and John , from the cross, to live out the rest of their lives as family, John to look after her as his own Mother, and her to rely upon John as a son. ;D Scripture tells us that the Virgin Mary was special because she was born without sin, whereas all other mortals are born with original sin. Original sin is the reason behind the first sacrament, baptism. Baptism serves to cleanse humans of sin at birth, as all humans are flawed creatures that were thrown out of the Garden of Eden. Most Catholics pray to the Virgin Mary in the hopes that they will be given her assistance to speak to God directly. My personal belief is that the Virgin Mary has become too much of an idol to many different cultures within Christianity. Hope this helps with the debate at hand.
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Post by fistful of corn on Mar 13, 2007 3:08:36 GMT -5
hi deathweaver,
We're obviously giving our differing outlooks based upon the protestant schism; I am curious where you find that Mary was born without the sin-curse?
I don't understand how anyone can even imagine that Baptism, whether at birth or at any other time will cleanse anyone of sin; this contradicts the entire message of the Gospels, that being that salvation, only through the grace of God and the blood shed by Jesus Christ, and our acceptance of this incredible gift (and true repentance) are all that can save us and cleanse us of our sin debt.
Again, concerning Mary, we are admonished to pray in the name of Christ. I don't see where anyone is admonished in the scriptures to pray in the name (or with the assistance of) Mary.
Keep in mind that I am not being contentious, but rather interested in how you have come to these beliefs.
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Post by Absolute Zero on Mar 13, 2007 12:24:59 GMT -5
deathweaver, I've started going to Catholic services recently. I'm not sure if it depends on the individual church or not, but the one I've been to doesn't place as much emphasis on Mary as I had expected. I take it the individual church is influenced by the culture as well?
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Post by deathweaver on Mar 13, 2007 20:24:52 GMT -5
@ Zero: Culture is huge in the Catholic service. The service you might get with a more Hispanic origin will be more geared to the Virgin Mary as opposed to a more Roman origin. Let's be honest, the local church will gear a service towards it's followers, which by extension, helps increase the number of butts in seats. @ fistfulofcorn: I'm basing that on 7 years of parochial schooling, specifically Roman Catholic, . Of course, Catholic schools rely on the King James Version, but I'm not sure if the Protestant schism uses the same version. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception can probably give a better explanation than me. As for baptism, it removes only original sin from the Catholic person. Catholicism believes that through Jesus, a priest can remove original sin from a child, or any other person. Last, but not least, Catholicism is very strict about who you can pray to. You cannot pray to the Virgin Mary directly as that's considering idoltry, but praying to the Virgin Mary for assistance is different. I don't make the rules, I just know what they say. As I mentioned above, this is the strict dogma of Roman Catholicism. I would have considered myself a staunch Roman Catholic a decade ago, but not any more.
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Post by Absolute Zero on Mar 14, 2007 1:54:16 GMT -5
Why are Hispanic service geared towards the Virgin Mary anyway? I know the Irish match them in that aspect as well. Does it have a lot to do with the Lady of Guadalupe?
I think most Catholic Churches in Virginia, as well as the South, were probably founded by Germans. Besides some repetitions and the priest, it was like most other churches I've been to.
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Post by deathweaver on Mar 14, 2007 18:14:35 GMT -5
@ Zero: I'm not real sure why the service is geared that way in Hispanic cultures. I think it would have something to do with the Lady of Guadalupe, but I'm unclear of the official (or unofficial) reasons.
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Post by fistful of corn on Mar 15, 2007 5:01:33 GMT -5
deathweaver: thanks for your reply. I am more interested in your personal opinion on the origins of these thoughts, e.g., scripture that supports these things. I had gathered where you had heard them, but I am curious as to whether you feel that there is scripture that supports these thoughts.
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Post by deathweaver on Mar 15, 2007 21:40:41 GMT -5
@ fistful: Right now, I couldn't honestly answer that. Growing up, we didn't question the origin of the Mary's original sin, it was just a factual piece of knowledge. I went back to the wiki article for any real scriptural findings, only to see that it's pretty slim. In short, I don't believe that Scripture can truly account for Mary's grace. But I guess that's why they call it faith. I don't see any reason why the son of God couldn't be born to a woman with original sin. I feel that if anything, such a belief would help place Jesus into a more mortal status, as opposed to a deity.
All in all, no, Scripture doesn't support the belief that Mary was born without original sin.
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Post by fistful of corn on Mar 23, 2007 7:00:43 GMT -5
deathweaver:that is what I was getting at. I don't feel that being born of a mortal (and sin-cursed) woman takes away from the diety of Jesus Christ one wit; just part of the miracle, to me. But as you mentioned, the 'mary-cult' is certainly not supported by scripture.
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Post by deathweaver on Apr 25, 2007 23:20:55 GMT -5
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Post by Absolute Zero on May 1, 2007 2:24:31 GMT -5
Good stuff. It's interesting to note that many Pentecostal groups, at least from my area, do missions in Mexico. Pentelcostals were growing quite well for a while, not sure how they're doing now.
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